[nuttx] Group Option

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

There have always been complaints about Yahoo! groups. When I first started the group in 2008, it was state-of-the-art and everyone was happy. But it seems to become less reliable over time and the number of complaints keep increasing... usually about delayed messages or missing attachments.

No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up. It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too pushy, too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such messages.

But I do have another NuttX group at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/nuttx . I have been refused members for that groups so there is no one there but me. But I can open that group up again if people want to participate there. I will accept members now.

I do have two concerns with that:

1) First, there are 836 members of this group. How can we integrate all of them and keep continuity in the messages?

2) I don't trust Google. They have proven that if they lose interest in something that they made commitments to (like Google code), they most certainly will pull the rug out.

But with that said, I will now accept new members at the google group.

Greg

[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Everybody,

The migration to Google groups has very little adhesion: only 13
people (less than 2% of current mailing list).

Unfortunately Google groups is not much different from Yahoo, then
looking for alternatives a friend of mine suggested FreeLists:
https://www.freelists.org/about.html

Then I talked with Greg about it and he agreed to use it.

The link to subscribe to nuttx

https://www.freelists.org/list/nuttx

OR you can just send an email to: nuttx-***@freelists.org

BR,

Alan

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
There have always been complaints about Yahoo! groups. When I first started
the group in 2008, it was state-of-the-art and everyone was happy. But it
seems to become less reliable over time and the number of complaints keep
increasing... usually about delayed messages or missing attachments.
No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those
my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that
increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up.
It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too
pushy, too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz
discussions and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such
messages.
But I do have another NuttX group at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/nuttx . I have been refused members
for that groups so there is no one there but me. But I can open that group
up again if people want to participate there. I will accept members now.
1) First, there are 836 members of this group. How can we integrate all of
them and keep continuity in the messages?
2) I don't trust Google. They have proven that if they lose interest in
something that they made commitments to (like Google code), they most
certainly will pull the rug out.
But with that said, I will now accept new members at the google group.
Greg

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

I don't think I will be using it. I really hate the UI and I can't even figure out how to log into it.

[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Greg,

As I told you in the email, the first time you can login with a blank password:

https://www.freelists.org/login.html

Then it will send you a link to let you to create a new password.

BR,

Alan

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
I don't think I will be using it. I really hate the UI and I can't even
figure out how to log into it.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

It feels like a very sloppy, badly designed tool. But I will use it if everyone else wants to use a crappy but open source tool

[Lorenz Meier [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Greg,

You want to host a public mailing list. Primary need for that is continuity - which Google has demonstrated now for quite some time. As long as the mailing list is public it makes no difference if Google is hosting it or not from a “who has the data” perspective. And most, if not all of us, have a Google account (which does *not* require a Gmail account).

On the other hand using a small, donation-based service does not seem to offer any sort of guarantee about continuity.

As for the migration: Active users will migrate. And only active users really contribute to a community. So based on that assessment your choice of Google Groups makes perfect sense and is the default many people choose.

-Lorenz

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
It feels like a very sloppy, badly designed tool. But I will use it if everyone else wants to use a crappy but open source tool

[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Lorenz,

I agree with you, but FreeLists is around since Aug 2000, so almost 18 years.

Google has demonstrated from past examples that they can discontinue a
service as fast as they started it (Google Code, Google Wave, Orkut,
etc).

I'm facing some issues with FreeLists, maybe Google groups could be an
option until we find something more reliable.

BR,

Alan

Post by Alan Carvalho de Assis ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
Hi Greg,
You want to host a public mailing list. Primary need for that is continuity
- which Google has demonstrated now for quite some time. As long as the
mailing list is public it makes no difference if Google is hosting it or not
from a “who has the data” perspective. And most, if not all of us, have a
Google account (which does *not* require a Gmail account).
On the other hand using a small, donation-based service does not seem to
offer any sort of guarantee about continuity.
As for the migration: Active users will migrate. And only active users
really contribute to a community. So based on that assessment your choice of
Google Groups makes perfect sense and is the default many people choose.
-Lorenz

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
It feels like a very sloppy, badly designed tool. But I will use it if
everyone else wants to use a crappy but open source tool

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Just to repeat my comments from the original post;



"No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up. It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too pushy, too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such messages."


It just can't be avoid.. everyone want to pick a tool. Everyone has an argument. Everyone just adds friction and drags everything down into a morass of pointless discussions.


I am finished talking. Google or nothing. Please don't suggest anything else.

[Goran Mekić [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
Just to repeat my comments from the original post;
"No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up. It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too pushy, too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such messages."
It just can't be avoid.. everyone want to pick a tool. Everyone has an argument. Everyone just adds friction and drags everything down into a morass of pointless discussions.
I am finished talking. Google or nothing. Please don't suggest anything else.

Now I think I have ~10 years of experience in administering email
servers and I'm never sure if Google is going to mark any of my servers
as spam. It always works with everyone else, but Google is always a
special snowflake. Yahoo obviously thinks I did good enough setup as
their servers don't block mine (hence this message). That being said, I
would love the solution to be anything but Google.

[Fabio Balzano [e-mail] [nuttx]]

+1 here for a no google solution

Post by Goran Mekić ***@tilda.center [nuttx]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
Just to repeat my comments from the original post;
"No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up. It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too pushy, too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such messages."
It just can't be avoid.. everyone want to pick a tool. Everyone has an argument. Everyone just adds friction and drags everything down into a morass of pointless discussions.
I am finished talking. Google or nothing. Please don't suggest anything else.

Now I think I have ~10 years of experience in administering email
servers and I'm never sure if Google is going to mark any of my servers
as spam. It always works with everyone else, but Google is always a
special snowflake. Yahoo obviously thinks I did good enough setup as
their servers don't block mine (hence this message). That being said, I
would love the solution to be anything but Google.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

I wasn't aware there was a vote. We are already moving to Google.

[Sebastien Lorquet [e-mail] [nuttx]]

okay, goodbye. We still have direct email and pull requests.

Sebastien

 
I wasn't aware there was a vote.  We are already moving to Google.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

People should never send email to my personal email accounts. I will not respond to you. I will not have private technical dicussions with you. I will not provide individual hekp to you.

Your options are the Yahoo group (for now), the Google group, and Bitbucket Issues.

[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Sebastien,

You are a great NuttX developer and contributor, we need you helping
it to keep evolving.

Also almost all NuttX contributors/developers are already in the NuttX
group at google.

"Please jump in! The water is warm!"

BR,

Alan

Post by Sebastien Lorquet ***@lorquet.fr [nuttx]
okay, goodbye. We still have direct email and pull requests.
Sebastien

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
I wasn't aware there was a vote. We are already moving to Google.

[Thiago Costa de Paiva [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi, Greg.

I'm writing just to you because I don't want to contribute to the discussion in the e-mail list.

Here is a suggestion for a e-mail list provider (not any kind of "favorite tool"), in the case you are still considering other options besides google groups.

https://riseup.net/en/lists

https://riseup.net/en/security

Thank you for your work and I'm sorry for any inconvenience.

Thiago

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
Just to repeat my comments from the original post;
"No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up. It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too pushy, too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such messages."
It just can't be avoid.. everyone want to pick a tool. Everyone has an argument. Everyone just adds friction and drags everything down into a morass of pointless discussions.
I am finished talking. Google or nothing. Please don't suggest anything else.

[Sebastien Lorquet [e-mail] [nuttx]]

ah, this also:


yahoo hides the group address behind email entries with member names, like this:

***@yahoo.com [nuttx] <***@yahoogroups.com>

The real address of the person is just a display name that hides the group
address between <>, which results in LOTS of direct emails ending up on lists.


This happens a lot on another yahoo list I am a member of.

Sebastien

Post by Thiago Costa de Paiva ***@tecepe.eng.br [nuttx]
 
Hi, Greg.
I'm writing just to you because I don't want to contribute to the discussion
in the e-mail list.
Here is a suggestion for a e-mail list provider (not any kind of "favorite
tool"), in the case you are still considering other options besides google
groups.
https://riseup.net/en/lists
https://riseup.net/en/security
Thank you for your work and I'm sorry for any inconvenience.
Thiago

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
Just to repeat my comments from the original post;
"No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those

my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that
increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up.
It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too pushy,
too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions
and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such messages."

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
It just can't be avoid.. everyone want to pick a tool. Everyone has an

argument. Everyone just adds friction and drags everything down into a morass
of pointless discussions.

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
I am finished talking. Google or nothing. Please don't suggest anything else.

--
Thiago Costa de Paiva
FSF member: 11963
Linux User: 565327

------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nuttx/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nuttx/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
nuttx-***@yahoogroups.com
nuttx-***@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
nuttx-***@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

[Thiago Costa de Paiva [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Sorry, guys.

This message was meant only to Greg. I've got tricked by the '"***@yahoo.com [nuttx]" <***@yahoogroups.com>' description.

Thiago

Post by Thiago Costa de Paiva ***@tecepe.eng.br [nuttx]
Hi, Greg.
I'm writing just to you because I don't want to contribute to the discussion in the e-mail list.
Here is a suggestion for a e-mail list provider (not any kind of "favorite tool"), in the case you are still considering other options besides google groups.
https://riseup.net/en/lists
https://riseup.net/en/security
Thank you for your work and I'm sorry for any inconvenience.
Thiago

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
Just to repeat my comments from the original post;
"No, I don't want to get involved in another one of those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions. I am not going to do anything that increases my costs or my workload so please don't even bring the subject up. It is too diffult and has been so painful in the past. People get too pushy, too bigoted, and too pissed off in those my-favorite-tools-is-xyz discussions and I won't participate. Don't waste your time typing such messages."
It just can't be avoid.. everyone want to pick a tool. Everyone has an argument. Everyone just adds friction and drags everything down into a morass of pointless discussions.
I am finished talking. Google or nothing. Please don't suggest anything else.

--
Thiago Costa de Paiva
FSF member: 11963
Linux User: 565327

[Sebastien Lorquet [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Post by Alan Carvalho de Assis ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
 
Hi Greg,
You want to host a public mailing list. Primary need for that is
continuity - which Google has demonstrated now for quite some time. As
long as the mailing list is public it makes no difference if Google is
hosting it or not from a “who has the data” perspective.

No, I care. Since they have the data they can do whatever they want with
it, including making it disappear or use it in their big data algorithms
to know even more about you.

Post by Alan Carvalho de Assis ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
And most, if not all of us, have a Google account (which does *not*
require a Gmail account).

I made great efforts to leave google accounts for good. I have no active
google account. No cookies in my browser connects me to any google
service. Google is excellent for searching the web, no doubt about that.
But my search history is the maximum of data I am willing to give them,
at least voluntarily. Google in your mail, google in your videos, google
in your docs, google in your browser, google in your tv, google in your
home, next one is google in your bed? or in your food? Enough google
already.

Google groups REQUIRES a google account to join unless users are added
manually via admin interface. This is not okay. I will never join a
google group.

Post by Alan Carvalho de Assis ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
On the other hand using a small, donation-based service does not seem
to offer any sort of guarantee about continuity.
As for the migration: Active users will migrate. And only active users
really contribute to a community. So based on that assessment your
choice of Google Groups makes perfect sense and is the default many
people choose.

No. Yahoo is bad, security wise, and it misses attachements and slows
down email delivery. But I wont migrate to google.

But this is only my opinion, that I share with myself. I know. And I
should go to bed instead of complaining.

Sebastien

Post by Alan Carvalho de Assis ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
-Lorenz

It feels like a very sloppy, badly designed tool.  But I will use it
if everyone else wants to use a crappy but open source tool

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

This looks like another option: https://groups.io/

They claim that they can transfer all Yahoo group members and the mail history as well. Does anyone have any experience (what do I feel like I have already taken several steps down the rabbit hole).

Google groups are also getting some bad press lately I notice as well. I think that there is just no way for these companies to realize any profit from hosting groups.

[Sebastien Lorquet [e-mail] [nuttx]]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[SP [e-mail] [nuttx]]

I made great efforts to leave google accounts for good. I have no active google account.

Same as Sebastien for me.

Both groups.io and freelists.org would work for me and it would finally be great
to get rid of the Yahoo too :)

Regarding calls for the so called "modern forum", I hope we don't go there and
stick to talking through our mail clients.

[Michał Łyszczek [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Post by Sebastien Lorquet ***@lorquet.fr [nuttx]
Google groups REQUIRES a google account to join unless users are added
manually via admin interface. This is not okay. I will never join a
google group.

That's not really true. You can subscribe to google mailing list via ordinary
email message. To subscribe to new nuttx group, just send an empty email to

nuttx+***@googlegroups.com

You'll receive confirmation link. I went this way and I don't have google
account.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Things are picking up a little over in the Google group. Getting close to a critical mass where we can have real discussions.


I love the response time. If I post on the Google web interface, the email shows up in my inbox in ~5 seconds. I think this will solve these multi-hour, multi-day delays, and posts arriving wildly out of order with Yahoo!


Greg

[Sebastien Lorquet [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Seems that the google account free version works after all.

So I have joined.

Approval is pending, the group page says.

Sebastien

Post by Michał Łyszczek ***@bofc.pl [nuttx]

Post by Sebastien Lorquet ***@lorquet.fr [nuttx]
Google groups REQUIRES a google account to join unless users are added
manually via admin interface. This is not okay. I will never join a
google group.

That's not really true. You can subscribe to google mailing list via ordinary
email message. To subscribe to new nuttx group, just send an empty email to
You'll receive confirmation link. I went this way and I don't have google
account.

[Fabio Balzano [e-mail] [nuttx]]

same here, I did the email automatic subscription yesterday night but I didn't receive any email yet. I suspect there is something more to do.
Thank you

Post by Sebastien Lorquet ***@lorquet.fr [nuttx]
Seems that the google account free version works after all.
So I have joined.
Approval is pending, the group page says.
Sebastien

Post by Michał Łyszczek ***@bofc.pl [nuttx]

Post by Sebastien Lorquet ***@lorquet.fr [nuttx]
Google groups REQUIRES a google account to join unless users are added
manually via admin interface. This is not okay. I will never join a
google group.

That's not really true. You can subscribe to google mailing list via ordinary
email message. To subscribe to new nuttx group, just send an empty email to
You'll receive confirmation link. I went this way and I don't have google
account.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

There is a delay because Alan or I have to approve all new members. Everything should now be in order.

By default, first time posts also have be approved, but I try to enable posting for all names that I recognize.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

It took about 6 tries to do that. Then about a half hour to figure out how to even see the menu that would let me see the mail (if there were any). I really hate this.

[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Greg,

Yes, I think it is too much minimalist.

I didn't figure out how to add more other people as moderator yet.

I will to contact the freelists founder to fix it.

BR,

Alan

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
It took about 6 tries to do that. Then about a half hour to figure out how
to even see the menu that would let me see the mail (if there were any). I
really hate this.

[Michał Łyszczek [e-mail] [nuttx]]

1) First, there are 836 members of this group. How can we integrate all
of them and keep continuity in the messages?

I don't belive there is a way. You just probably have to maintain two
mailing lists until the one on yahoo dies. And maybe you could add
notice about deprecation of yahoo when new user subscribes to the list.

2) I don't trust Google. They have proven that if they lose interest in
something that they made commitments to (like Google code), they most
certainly will pull the rug out.
But with that said, I will now accept new members at the google group.

Any reason for mailing list being private? I don't see a way to read
archives without having google account - and not everyone wants to have
google account.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Wow. I approved this first time post at around 6:00 AM it just shows up at 4:10 pm! And I never received the email (for this or any other messages today). Time to make the switch to https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/nuttx

I have changed the settings on the Google group so that it is no longer a private group. It defaulted to private but now the messages should be publicly visible.

Greg

[Sebastien Lorquet [e-mail] [nuttx]]

I sent two messages yesterday evening, still not here in the morning!

Not the most important ones BTW...

Sebastien

 
Wow. I approved this first time post at around 6:00 AM it just shows up at
4:10 pm! And I never received the email (for this or any other messages
today). Time to make the switch to https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/nuttx
I have changed the settings on the Google group so that it is no longer a
private group. It defaulted to private but now the messages should be publicly
visible.
Greg

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

I just want to add my 2 cents, which isn't meant to be a "my-favorite-tool-is-xyz", but merely a suggestion.

I think it might be beneficial to use a more modern approach using Discourse (https://github.com/discourse/discourse) to bring more organization to the discussions.

For an example of a live discourse forum, see https://community.particle.io/ https://community.particle.io/

It would cost money, but self hosting would be $5/month on a small Linode VM.


I would be willing to setup and pay for a Linode VM to host a Discourse docker image if you're interested.


There also appears to be an import script for yahoo groups into discourse, but I have no idea how well that would work.


-Matt

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

I would prefer google groups over yahoo groups any day. The argument that Google just drops its systems when they do not want to support it is not really a problem to me. Is it really better to use a system that Yahoo pretty much abandoned 5 years ago (except for some minor UI changes here and there)?

Getting people to move is just to put a message in here saying that all future communication will happen in the new groups and then put a link. (this of cause requires that you actually stop answering questions over here and just ask them to move to google groups instead).
The people moving over are the ones with an actual interest - the rest of them are worth nothing and are not very likely to ever go to the yahoo groups since they signed up at some point.

[Harald Welte [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi,

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]
2) I don't trust Google. They have proven that if they lose interest in something that they made commitments to (like Google code), they most certainly will pull the rug out.

the nuttx community can always either run your own mailing list server (like mailman,
ezmlm, ...). Many projects have been running mailing lists for decades this way, myself included.

If you don't want to host for yourself, you can for sure get the list hosted at many other places that are
already running mailinglists (like http://lists.nongnu.org/, https://lists.osmocom.org/,
http://librelist.com/, ...)