[nuttx] TizenRT/Tinyara from Samsung

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Dear Greg,


Today Samsung made TizenRT public and acknowledged "NuttX" in its first public release.


https://wiki.tizen.org/wiki/Tizen_RT https://wiki.tizen.org/wiki/Tizen_RT



Thanks for the timely Support from all of you in this group :-)


Cheers,
Amogh

[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Thanks for sharing Amogh!

Many big companies are discovering NuttX!

This RTOS rocks!!!

BR,

Alan

Post by ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
Dear Greg,
Today Samsung made TizenRT public and acknowledged "NuttX" in its first public release.
https://wiki.tizen.org/wiki/Tizen_RT https://wiki.tizen.org/wiki/Tizen_RT
Thanks for the timely Support from all of you in this group :-)
Cheers,
Amogh

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Great work from Samsung ! Tomorrow will be the oneshot script test on Ubuntu VM!
Maybe we should inspire them about MIT / BSD Licence ? :p

Greets,
Jerome

[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Greg,

I think you are right!

Sounds like the Android vs. Linux relation.

It could be kind from Samsung if they replace the name TinyAra (since
it was originally the project name, not the RTOS) and start to use the
NuttX name, it could be a very positive marketing for NuttX.

There is only one reference to NuttX in their page and even the
overview about TizenRT they used the name "Lightweight RTOS
(TinyAra)".

Come on Samsung!!!

BR,

Alan

Post by ***@open-modular.com [nuttx]
Great work from Samsung ! Tomorrow will be the oneshot script test on Ubuntu VM!
Maybe we should inspire them about MIT / BSD Licence ? :p
Greets,
Jerome

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Post by Alan Carvalho de Assis ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
It could be kind from Samsung if they replace the name TinyAra (since

it was originally the project name, not the RTOS) and start to use the
NuttX name, it could be a very positive marketing for NuttX.

Post by Alan Carvalho de Assis ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
There is only one reference to NuttX in their page and even the

overview about TizenRT they used the name "Lightweight RTOS
(TinyAra)".


"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"


Ara has more marketing a appearl because it is assocated with Google. NuttX is associated with an old fart who lives in the jungle and programs in his underwear.


Greg

[Ken Pettit [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Yeah, BSD license! I know BSD says you can do what you want with the
code, but still...when standing on the shoulders of giants (i.e. on the
Shoulders of Greg)...

I noticed they are using SmartFS and it says "bad sector management, and
transaction logging based journaling". I wonder if they are using the
NuttX SmartFS implementation or another implementation. It *looks* like
maybe the NuttX SmartFS system, but I wonder what they did to add bad
sector management and transaction logging based journaling. These
would be nice features for Samsung to push back to NuttX! (hint, hint) :)

Ken

Post by ***@open-modular.com [nuttx]
Great work from Samsung ! Tomorrow will be the oneshot script test on Ubuntu VM!
Maybe we should inspire them about MIT / BSD Licence ? :p
Greets,
Jerome

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

All,

Tinyara deviates from the Nuttx with many additions and deletion of the features from the nuttx.

Once the code is available in git hub, we shall discuss more on this :)

And Greg., yes it's a complete IoT platform with iotivity iot.js lwm2m iot bus smartfs database debuggers support and many more into it.

[Janne Rosberg [e-mail] [nuttx]]

FYI,

code is available on: https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/ <https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/>

—Janne

Post by ***@gmail.com [nuttx]
All,
Tinyara deviates from the Nuttx with many additions and deletion of the features from the nuttx.
Once the code is available in git hub, we shall discuss more on this :)
And Greg., yes it's a complete IoT platform with iotivity iot.js lwm2m iot bus smartfs database debuggers support and many more into it.

[Gregory Nutt [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Post by Janne Rosberg ***@offcode.fi [nuttx]
code is available on: https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/

Thank you. Yes, I see that tinyara derives from NuttX. It has most of
the core files from NuttX but organized into a different directory
structure with some additional logic. It is probably fair to say that
this is not NuttX, but a new OS the derives heavily from NuttX (and is
mostly NuttX for now).

Since the repositories are not compatible that raises lots of roadmap
and long term support issues. There can be no simple ports from one OS
to another. I certainly won't be supporting tinyara. So these will
diverge more and more over time. That is unfortunate but if Samsung
steps up and supports their new RTOS with dedicated personnel, then this
should not be a problem.

And the roadmaps are probably different. I suspect that tinyara will be
become more and more dedicated. NuttX, on the hand, will be more and
more generalized and will strictly follow POSIX OS interface
requirements. The commonality that exists today, will probably also be
erased in a few years.

Greg

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

code is available on: https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/ https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/

Thank you. Yes, I see that tinyara derives from NuttX. ...

I can also see that it derives from a very old version of NuttX. I can see, for example, that it still uses the dbg, vdbg, et all macros which were eliminated from NuttX about 8 months ago.

I presume that the code is based off of the frozen version of NuttX used in both project ARA and the Motorola MDK? That was NuttX 7.5 dated Sept 27, 2014.

So these OSs are probably very much out of sync in time as well. Maybe 2 and a half years? It is difficult to be certain since there is no GIT history prior to the initial release and all of the ReleaseNotes and ChangeLogs have been removed.

The NuttX commit rate is very high at 10-30 commits per day. So these RTOSs may differ by something like 20,000 commits. Certainly enough to say that they have diverged.

Greg

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

code is available on: https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/ https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/ https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/ https://git.tizen.org/cgit/rtos/tinyara/

Thank you. Yes, I see that tinyara derives from NuttX. ..

And license changed to Apache.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

TinyAra sounds like a NuttX fork from Samsung.
I'd say that's a good thing the project gets forked by such a brand, it means it has real consistency even if it's coded in underwear in the middle of jungle :D

I think that the whole TinyAra project is having it's own direction but some can be taken. To me the IoT.js framework + Jerryscript is enough to be integrated as after continuing searches,i did not found better challengers about javascript integration on MCU-envs.

Like whole OpenAMP might not worth it but MCAPI/MTAPI/MRAPI can be real intersting adds, we should try to maintain the focus on what's essential to get integrated and avoid the 'useless' as possible to keep the low footrpint main goal. The shortest and clearer path is often the best =)

And if peoples want to lead different goals like Samsung , the BSD licence allow to fork for dedicated appliances =) NuttX should stay as much POSIX compliant and generalistic in my opinion.

Bests,
Jerome

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Post by ***@open-modular.com [nuttx]
TinyAra sounds like a NuttX fork from Samsung.
I'd say that's a good thing the project gets forked by such a brand, it means it has real consistency even if it's coded in underwear in the middle of jungle :D

I agree and that is the purpose of the BSD license anyway: So that people can take the code and build upon in any way that they chose. I commend Samsung for make this major effort open source.


I am not be critical of Samsung in any way. I am just puzzling about the relationship between tinyara and NuttX and how they can be symbiotic. But don't think that is going to be possible because of structural, licensing, and roadmap differences.


Greg

[Neilh [e-mail] [nuttx]]

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<p>


<p>Wow thanks to Samsung for releasing the code.  <br>
</p>
<p>I'm at the ELC OpenIot <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://openiotelcna2017.sched.com">https://openiotelcna2017.sched.com</a></p>
<p>and there has been a fair amount of discussion from presenters
about the best code being used in different places ... and
different streams appearing with good parts merging back in.</p>
<p>Yesterday Linus T and Dirk Hohndel (Uboot 10yrs) talked about the
release cycle on Linux and what was working - I believe the talk s
available as video. They also encouraged a friendly technical
discussion atmosphere, people networking.<br>
</p>
<p> Security in one form or another is a very big topic - secure
boots for UBOOT and also myNewt <br>
</p>
<p>BTE LE 5.0 was announced Dec 2016 - but BT mesh is expected to be
later this year. 5.0 marketing is 2xspeed 4xrange 8xdata - but is
marketing round up of numbers, and not altogether. So if
optomizing for range, you won;t get data. The data is achieved
through new MAC with 2x symbol rate. Often takes 5yrs for hw to
reach mass production. The headliner feature is a more managed
advertising of services - coexsstent with crowded spectrum - but
become a lot more complex. The hotel we were in has BT on all the
doors so crowded spectrum.<br>
</p>
<p>A number of sessions are about aspects of BTLE - for true Low
Energy + solid Security its 4.2.   runtime.io/myNewt  have an open
source stack, NIMBLE, and expect it to become OS agnostic, with a
demo on Zephyr(Intel). Nimble is configurable so can have
architecture needed. Supports up to 32 sessions - per session is 
652bytes/ram - but could be optomized further. <br>
</p>
UBoot prime lead (?) Thomas Rini gave an overview of the testing and
board farm - UBOOT is used by 20companies and has 110 developers.
Their objective is to complete migration to Kconfig this year.<br>
<br>
Sony has a team here - I briefly said hello yesterday - and today
they are going to be showcasing their nuttx based product. Masayuki
Ishikawa Snr Sw Eng Manager, Satoru Ueda Chief Open Alliance
Manager, Koichi Okamoto Snr Sys Eng<br> <br> <br> <br> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Neil Hancock</pre> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/2017 6:23 AM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:***@yahoo.com">***@yahoo.com</a> [nuttx] wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote cite="mid:o8k6t4+***@YahooGroups.com" type="cite"> <span>�</span> <div id="ygrp-text"> <p><br class="yui-cursor"> </p> <div class="ygroups-quoted">&gt; TinyAra sounds like a NuttX
fork from Samsung. <br>
&gt; I'd say that's a good thing the project gets forked
by such a brand, it means it has real consistency even if
it's coded in underwear in the middle of jungle :D</div>
<div class="ygroups-quoted"><br>
</div>
<div class="ygroups-quoted">I agree and that is the purpose
of the BSD license anyway:  So that people can take the
code and build upon in any way that they chose.  I commend
Samsung for make this major effort open source.</div>
<div class="ygroups-quoted"><br>
</div>
<div class="ygroups-quoted">I am not be critical of Samsung
in any way.  I am just puzzling about the relationship
between tinyara and NuttX and how they can be symbiotic. 
But don't think that is going to be possible because of
structural, licensing, and roadmap differences.</div>
<div class="ygroups-quoted"><br>
</div>
<div class="ygroups-quoted">Greg</div>
<div><br>
</div></div>



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[Alan Carvalho de Assis [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Hi Neil,

Yes, I think NIMBLE BLE stack could add support to NuttX, then we
could use it with some BLE MCU with support on NuttX (currently only
ESP32, but Nordic nRF52 could be other option).

Expressif if using the Google Bluedroid on ESP32 (still WIP), but I
think for small MCU NINBLE should be a better alternative.

Greg, porting a Bluetooth stack to NuttX should be other high priority
item. BLE is very important for some IoT applications.

BR,

Alan

Post by Neilh ***@biomonitors.com [nuttx]
Wow thanks to Samsung for releasing the code.
I'm at the ELC OpenIot https://openiotelcna2017.sched.com
and there has been a fair amount of discussion from presenters about the
best code being used in different places ... and different streams appearing
with good parts merging back in.
Yesterday Linus T and Dirk Hohndel (Uboot 10yrs) talked about the release
cycle on Linux and what was working - I believe the talk s available as
video. They also encouraged a friendly technical discussion atmosphere,
people networking.
Security in one form or another is a very big topic - secure boots for UBOOT
and also myNewt
BTE LE 5.0 was announced Dec 2016 - but BT mesh is expected to be later this
year. 5.0 marketing is 2xspeed 4xrange 8xdata - but is marketing round up of
numbers, and not altogether. So if optomizing for range, you won;t get data.
The data is achieved through new MAC with 2x symbol rate. Often takes 5yrs
for hw to reach mass production. The headliner feature is a more managed
advertising of services - coexsstent with crowded spectrum - but become a
lot more complex. The hotel we were in has BT on all the doors so crowded
spectrum.
A number of sessions are about aspects of BTLE - for true Low Energy + solid
Security its 4.2. runtime.io/myNewt have an open source stack, NIMBLE,
and expect it to become OS agnostic, with a demo on Zephyr(Intel). Nimble is
configurable so can have architecture needed. Supports up to 32 sessions -
per session is 652bytes/ram - but could be optomized further.
UBoot prime lead (?) Thomas Rini gave an overview of the testing and board
farm - UBOOT is used by 20companies and has 110 developers. Their objective
is to complete migration to Kconfig this year.
Sony has a team here - I briefly said hello yesterday - and today they are
going to be showcasing their nuttx based product. Masayuki Ishikawa Snr Sw
Eng Manager, Satoru Ueda Chief Open Alliance Manager, Koichi Okamoto Snr Sys
Eng
Neil Hancock

Post by ***@yahoo.com [nuttx]

Post by ***@open-modular.com [nuttx]
TinyAra sounds like a NuttX fork from Samsung.
I'd say that's a good thing the project gets forked by such a brand, it
means it has real consistency even if it's coded in underwear in the
middle of jungle :D

I agree and that is the purpose of the BSD license anyway: So that people
can take the code and build upon in any way that they chose. I commend
Samsung for make this major effort open source.
I am not be critical of Samsung in any way. I am just puzzling about the
relationship between tinyara and NuttX and how they can be symbiotic. But
don't think that is going to be possible because of structural, licensing,
and roadmap differences.
Greg

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Sony + NuttX (nice slides) :
https://openiotelcna2017.sched.com/event/9OOs/developing-audio-products-with-cortex-m3nuttxc11-masayuki-ishikawa-sony https://openiotelcna2017.sched.com/event/9OOs/developing-audio-products-with-cortex-m3nuttxc11-masayuki-ishikawa-sony
Thanks for the feedback about this conference Neil,keep us tuned how the presentation has gone =)
Greets,
Jerome

[SP [e-mail] [nuttx]]

I know BSD-type licences make it an easier choice for companies to use
some code and that Greg would not consider changing the licence (I'm not
even asking), but here is an (arguably) good reason why GNU-ish licences
can help protect development of public & open code.

In my company we treated this as FOSS code-base which we would try to
maintain as much upstream compatibility and contributions as we could.
On the contrary it seems the Samsung team thought it'd be better to
start off with a fork, whose development might never be merged back,
even if it was feasible (POSIX compatibility, etc) and beneficial to NuttX.

Just a remark.

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

I despise GPL. I would rm -rf the repositories before I would ever let that happen to the code. GPL is a virus. You can count on this folks: NuttX will be BSD FOREVER.


I do not have the authority to change the license anyway. I do not hold the copyright on all of the files. I used to insist on being listed as a copyright holder so that I could do such things, but that got away from me. And it would be morally improper for me to insist on being a copyright holder on code that I did not write (but I do appreciate it when people grant that). There was one person who was concerned that if I held the copyright on the code, I might make it proprietary and try to profit on the backs of others. That won't happen. And that can't happen.


So the license cannot change. I ran into this several years back when I was looking into changing to an even more permissive MIT license. But I could not do it. I don't have the authority.


Samsung's code can never be merged into NuttX for several reasons: They changed the license to Apache, they reformatted all of the files to use their internal coding standard, and they froze on a code base that is two and half years old. They ported a few recent bugfixes in. But their GIT lost all the history prior to the release of Tizen-RT. So it would be essentially impossible to establish any baseline to port against. And you cannot produce any meaningful differences because of the coding style changes.


The BSD license permits this use of NuttX and I have no problem at all. There is the loss of the potential to collaborate. It is a loss of the opportunity to get free open source support and to combine energy to grow the OS. Samsung will have to staff maintenance of their fork forever unless they can develop their own open source support community. Tizen-RT has value and that could happen. Personally, I feel only a trivial loss of that opportunity, and no bad feelings whatsoever. I support what Samsung is doing and hope that they are successful with it. But, of course, I cannot offer them any help or support.


Greg

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

Interesting! Thank you for sharing.


So this this is a merging of Project Ara, JerryScript, and IoT.js, right? It looks like it provides the full IoT framework. It looks like Tizen-RT and NuttX has the same relationship as Android and Linux. Am I understanding that right?


Did you port greybus to mainline NuttX? I have been looking into doing that for the past several days. I think that there is a problem with the greybus implementation (at least in the Motorola MDK) because it looks like many non-POSIX, non-standard application interfaces are used. Is that so?


That would be problem for me; I would probably need to create and manageable greybus interface that does not deviate from POSIX so much. Or, perhaps, it is better that greybus stay out of mainstream NuttX?


Again, great work! Thanks for your contribution!


Greg

['lee chen' [e-mail] [nuttx]]

Well, I have to say that GPL has its own viral aspect of it that it
obligates the company who uses it to open its code, which in embedded
world is somehow quite forcible and restrictive for embedded system
projects/products. That is one of the big differences between GPOS and
RTOS audiences. The GPL viral nature has scared away quite a few
projects/products at least from my experience during my career.

I would definitely vote for keeping the BSD license of the Nuttx, even
though at some point it seems that we lose some inputs from some users,
but the freedom BSD brings will attract more users. It's like a good
return policy of a department store, if it is an appropriate analogy.
The returns does somewhat mark a loss for the store but a good
worry-free return policy will attract more buyers in a larger scope.

That's my 2 cents.

-Lee

[[e-mail] [nuttx]]

I understand why businesses need to protect some code that gives them a competitive advantage in the market. That is just good business sense.


But much of the infrastructure software that is developed does not really provide a competitive advantage. That is the class of software that I encourage businesses to release to open source: If it has no business advantage, then it makes no sense for a business to maintain a staff to support it. In that case, why not return the code to open source and use that staff more appropriately on that software that does give you a competitive advantage.


And the software that is returned to open source is an investment: It will be maintained, tested, updated with each new OS release, and probably extended through other contributions. It is like putting money in the bank vs putting money a box that you hide in your house. The money in the bank is safe and gains interest.


Also, in many cases, if you do not contribute some software feature, some one else will develop an incompatible version and release that instead. A couple of cases come to mind: Motorola developed their own support for the STM32L4 in the MDK port of Project ARA. But, in the mean time, other people contributed the STM32L4 port and did it in a completely different way with a different directory structure and with a different naming convention.


Now the MDK is left with an incompatible port and one more reason why the MDK will probably never be re-integrated into upstream NuttX. They can never get the full benefit of all of the extensive features updates that have been incorporated for STM32F4.


Another case occurs to me: In the early 2000's IBM released a large volume of software into Linux. This, it turns out, gave IBM a competitive advantage because they now had their infrastructure in place on the Linux platform and were able to out-compete for several years.


There is another 2 cents. Now we are up to 4 cents!
Greg